Thursday, February 11, 2010
LOL RACISM pt.2
OK. I'll keep answers as concise as possible.
"Isn't it just possible that they never visited any 'Asian' areas of the universe? Like, Campsie is almost entirely Korean, but I never go there so if you made a show about my life, you'd never see Korean people."
No. If you're anywhere in a mixed population area, you'll see members of the various races in the same area. Go to the city and look around. You'll see Korean people. Are they a part of your life now?
"Given the whole China/US thing is never actually mentioned in-show (Not that I can remember anyway, I can only remember it saying that Earth couldn't support our numbers anymore) why does it even need to be an issue?"
Joss, at the very least, mentioned it on the commentary. It was his world, his vision, blah, blah, blah. It's canon, basically.
"It seems to stem from this guy appearing to be one of those 'Hey, there's no black/gay/asian/non-white people in this comic/show/movie/whatever so whoever made it must be totally racist/sexist/whatever!' type people."
That's not the issue. It's not overt racism as far as I can tell. The issue is that there's a demographic that should be there but isn't.
"You look in the west, and paintings of Jesus are white, you look in Africa and the same Jesus paintings are black..."
...but not among the white population in African nations...
"...it's just the cultural norm and given most of the superhero stuff started in the US 50 or so years ago, is it REALLY that surprising that most of these characters are white guys with white girlfriends?"
And a lot of it was created in the now, where the demographics are a lot more diverse. Our culture should reflect that, but it doesn't.
"Right. So it's not because (Say in the case of Batman) he had something to prove because his whole thing was basically revenge and so he practiced almost constantly to be the best? No of course not, he learned from Asian dudes, then got better at it than them because he's white, that's TOTALLY it."
Uh...Exactly.
"He's obviously never heard of Star Trek. Y'know, that show that almost never happened because there was a woman on the bridge? Not only a woman, but a BLACK woman too!"
No, but he's obviously heard of plenty of other sci-fi/fantasy series' where they don't take such edgy, edgy risks, hence the article.
"I recall my mother kvetching after watching Independence Day that "They never show what happened to Canadians" in the film."
That's different. That's because the film is set in a geographical location. Gotta be set somewhere. Firefly is set where there is apparently more ethnic diversity than what is actually portrayed is all. I'm mostly curious as to why, which was why I brought this up.
Here's the thing: What we're talking about - fundamentally - isn't Firefly (although I'll maintain that it is a good example) - it's an issue where a demographic that obviously should be represented isn't. If 'minorities' are given these roles, they're minor roles.
I'm not personally calling RACISM on this one, but I think it's worth thinking about a bit more. I know that the article made me think a bit differently about how I viewed the world - like I said, I never questioned the Firefly thing, but since it was brought to my attention, I can honestly see his point. And the point of other people who feel the same way.
One thing I liked about the Hitchhiker's movie was the casting of Mos Def as Ford. You guys might be saying 'Big Deal', but I always thought it actually was - I don't live in a bloody vaccuum. I - and many other people - are well aware that casting him for that role was a statement in itself in a world where it shouldn't have to be. And, just in case, don't go sayin' "BUT THERE DARK-SKINNED PEEPS IN OTHER FLIM!" because if you do, you're missing the very obvious point I'm making.
These films and other pieces of creativity that are discussed are mostly made in the US, where the demographic is similar to ours. OK, maybe back in the day, the white creators of Batman and similar things were in a more white-centric universe and Asian people didn't seem as real. Or something.
But this is now and we're encountering similar problems with lead roles. Sure, Batman was white then, so he should be white now. Fine. But this ain't just about Batman, either. Seeing a pattern?
I'll put it to you guys - The question is, if it ain't racism, then what is it?
As the creator of a fiction, is one not responsible for maintaining an accurate representation of all races in order to challenge racism that existed?
If you don't (and thus, do nothing), are you still contributing to a problem that existed decades ago?
Is it possible that the culture we exist in is not as racially self-aware as it should be?
And...
Why did you think Ford was white?* :-D
Go on. Admit it. Jesus knows you did.
"Isn't it just possible that they never visited any 'Asian' areas of the universe? Like, Campsie is almost entirely Korean, but I never go there so if you made a show about my life, you'd never see Korean people."
No. If you're anywhere in a mixed population area, you'll see members of the various races in the same area. Go to the city and look around. You'll see Korean people. Are they a part of your life now?
"Given the whole China/US thing is never actually mentioned in-show (Not that I can remember anyway, I can only remember it saying that Earth couldn't support our numbers anymore) why does it even need to be an issue?"
Joss, at the very least, mentioned it on the commentary. It was his world, his vision, blah, blah, blah. It's canon, basically.
"It seems to stem from this guy appearing to be one of those 'Hey, there's no black/gay/asian/non-white people in this comic/show/movie/whatever so whoever made it must be totally racist/sexist/whatever!' type people."
That's not the issue. It's not overt racism as far as I can tell. The issue is that there's a demographic that should be there but isn't.
"You look in the west, and paintings of Jesus are white, you look in Africa and the same Jesus paintings are black..."
...but not among the white population in African nations...
"...it's just the cultural norm and given most of the superhero stuff started in the US 50 or so years ago, is it REALLY that surprising that most of these characters are white guys with white girlfriends?"
And a lot of it was created in the now, where the demographics are a lot more diverse. Our culture should reflect that, but it doesn't.
"Right. So it's not because (Say in the case of Batman) he had something to prove because his whole thing was basically revenge and so he practiced almost constantly to be the best? No of course not, he learned from Asian dudes, then got better at it than them because he's white, that's TOTALLY it."
Uh...Exactly.
"He's obviously never heard of Star Trek. Y'know, that show that almost never happened because there was a woman on the bridge? Not only a woman, but a BLACK woman too!"
No, but he's obviously heard of plenty of other sci-fi/fantasy series' where they don't take such edgy, edgy risks, hence the article.
"I recall my mother kvetching after watching Independence Day that "They never show what happened to Canadians" in the film."
That's different. That's because the film is set in a geographical location. Gotta be set somewhere. Firefly is set where there is apparently more ethnic diversity than what is actually portrayed is all. I'm mostly curious as to why, which was why I brought this up.
Here's the thing: What we're talking about - fundamentally - isn't Firefly (although I'll maintain that it is a good example) - it's an issue where a demographic that obviously should be represented isn't. If 'minorities' are given these roles, they're minor roles.
I'm not personally calling RACISM on this one, but I think it's worth thinking about a bit more. I know that the article made me think a bit differently about how I viewed the world - like I said, I never questioned the Firefly thing, but since it was brought to my attention, I can honestly see his point. And the point of other people who feel the same way.
One thing I liked about the Hitchhiker's movie was the casting of Mos Def as Ford. You guys might be saying 'Big Deal', but I always thought it actually was - I don't live in a bloody vaccuum. I - and many other people - are well aware that casting him for that role was a statement in itself in a world where it shouldn't have to be. And, just in case, don't go sayin' "BUT THERE DARK-SKINNED PEEPS IN OTHER FLIM!" because if you do, you're missing the very obvious point I'm making.
These films and other pieces of creativity that are discussed are mostly made in the US, where the demographic is similar to ours. OK, maybe back in the day, the white creators of Batman and similar things were in a more white-centric universe and Asian people didn't seem as real. Or something.
But this is now and we're encountering similar problems with lead roles. Sure, Batman was white then, so he should be white now. Fine. But this ain't just about Batman, either. Seeing a pattern?
I'll put it to you guys - The question is, if it ain't racism, then what is it?
As the creator of a fiction, is one not responsible for maintaining an accurate representation of all races in order to challenge racism that existed?
If you don't (and thus, do nothing), are you still contributing to a problem that existed decades ago?
Is it possible that the culture we exist in is not as racially self-aware as it should be?
And...
Why did you think Ford was white?* :-D
Go on. Admit it. Jesus knows you did.
Comments:
"Joss, at the very least, mentioned it on the commentary. It was his world, his vision, blah, blah, blah. It's canon, basically."
Ok, fine, China and the US got too big. Re-watch the scene where it shows everyone taking off form earth - They're all on different vectors, so it's unlikely everyone went to the same system. Who said the ethnic distribution was equal?
If people are going to be pedantic wanks about the way Serenity passed that reaver ship, I'll be a pedantic ass when this guy brings up racial distribution.
"And a lot of it was created in the now, where the demographics are a lot more diverse. Our culture should reflect that, but it doesn't."
I was referring directly to him whining about Spidey/Superman/Iron man etc. Not contemporary guys.
"Uh...Exactly."
No, you missed my point. I'm saying that Batman wanted revenge, he's better than his teachers because he trains more than they do for the whole revenge thing. It's got nothing to do with him being white which is what the author seems to think.
"No, but he's obviously heard of plenty of other sci-fi/fantasy series' where they don't take such edgy, edgy risks, hence the article."
Why does everything have to be edgy and risky? Like you said, plenty of sci-fi is pretty bland which means white dudes, white girls.
Also, maybe he should watch a couple of episodes of Stargate Universe. One of the main secondary characters is an Asian lesbian. One of the main guys on earth (The show is set on a ship) is Philipino. One of the main characters is black.
"That's different. That's because the film is set in a geographical location. Gotta be set somewhere. Firefly is set where there is apparently more ethnic diversity than what is actually portrayed is all. I'm mostly curious as to why, which was why I brought this up"
Actually. I'd say it's technically set on earth. Given it's.. y'know, about an invasion of EARTH? So why dumb-author guy (not you, the guy who wrote the serenity thing)? Why was inderpendence day so racist? It only showed the Americans! Also, only white Americans! (As far as I can tell, there was 1 black guy?)
Ok, fine, China and the US got too big. Re-watch the scene where it shows everyone taking off form earth - They're all on different vectors, so it's unlikely everyone went to the same system. Who said the ethnic distribution was equal?
If people are going to be pedantic wanks about the way Serenity passed that reaver ship, I'll be a pedantic ass when this guy brings up racial distribution.
"And a lot of it was created in the now, where the demographics are a lot more diverse. Our culture should reflect that, but it doesn't."
I was referring directly to him whining about Spidey/Superman/Iron man etc. Not contemporary guys.
"Uh...Exactly."
No, you missed my point. I'm saying that Batman wanted revenge, he's better than his teachers because he trains more than they do for the whole revenge thing. It's got nothing to do with him being white which is what the author seems to think.
"No, but he's obviously heard of plenty of other sci-fi/fantasy series' where they don't take such edgy, edgy risks, hence the article."
Why does everything have to be edgy and risky? Like you said, plenty of sci-fi is pretty bland which means white dudes, white girls.
Also, maybe he should watch a couple of episodes of Stargate Universe. One of the main secondary characters is an Asian lesbian. One of the main guys on earth (The show is set on a ship) is Philipino. One of the main characters is black.
"That's different. That's because the film is set in a geographical location. Gotta be set somewhere. Firefly is set where there is apparently more ethnic diversity than what is actually portrayed is all. I'm mostly curious as to why, which was why I brought this up"
Actually. I'd say it's technically set on earth. Given it's.. y'know, about an invasion of EARTH? So why dumb-author guy (not you, the guy who wrote the serenity thing)? Why was inderpendence day so racist? It only showed the Americans! Also, only white Americans! (As far as I can tell, there was 1 black guy?)
"If 'minorities' are given these roles, they're minor roles"
Couldn't be because they're minorities, could it? If it was a show full of black guys, they wouldn't be a minority would they?
"I'm not personally calling RACISM on this one, but I think it's worth thinking about a bit more. I know that the article made me think a bit differently about how I viewed the world - like I said, I never questioned the Firefly thing, but since it was brought to my attention, I can honestly see his point. And the point of other people who feel the same way."
See I don't. He pointed out there are few Chinese people in Firefly and I thought 'So what?'. Do you not like it now because they're suddenly racist(and if so, can I have your Firefly DVD's :D)?
Here's a crazy idea, if he doesn't like that there's no asian people in media, why doesn't he join a friggin' production theatre?
Oh yeah, that's right. He's too busy whining about how everything is racist instead of doing something about it.
He wants racism? Try being in the position Mel copped today. New teacher, first assignment, small asian, country hick town. She cops racism from pretty much everywhere including the students she's meant to be teaching. When someone like Mel is reduced to tears halfway through the work day, then given not only the rest of the day but the day after off, then you know somethings up.
Suddenly makes Mr. 'Firefly is racist' sound like a prissy bitch, huh?
Also; Yeah, I did think Ford was white.
Good reason for that too, if you look a certian way (say, you're an alien) you'll probably want to blend in when on a planet that'd probably dissect you if they knew.
The majority of the English are white. (Yes, I KNOW there are blacks/asians/whatever there, I'm saying MOST Brits are white.) Ergo, if Ford was going to be hiding out there I imagine he'd want to look like the majority.
(Word verification: Combo)
Couldn't be because they're minorities, could it? If it was a show full of black guys, they wouldn't be a minority would they?
"I'm not personally calling RACISM on this one, but I think it's worth thinking about a bit more. I know that the article made me think a bit differently about how I viewed the world - like I said, I never questioned the Firefly thing, but since it was brought to my attention, I can honestly see his point. And the point of other people who feel the same way."
See I don't. He pointed out there are few Chinese people in Firefly and I thought 'So what?'. Do you not like it now because they're suddenly racist(and if so, can I have your Firefly DVD's :D)?
Here's a crazy idea, if he doesn't like that there's no asian people in media, why doesn't he join a friggin' production theatre?
Oh yeah, that's right. He's too busy whining about how everything is racist instead of doing something about it.
He wants racism? Try being in the position Mel copped today. New teacher, first assignment, small asian, country hick town. She cops racism from pretty much everywhere including the students she's meant to be teaching. When someone like Mel is reduced to tears halfway through the work day, then given not only the rest of the day but the day after off, then you know somethings up.
Suddenly makes Mr. 'Firefly is racist' sound like a prissy bitch, huh?
Also; Yeah, I did think Ford was white.
Good reason for that too, if you look a certian way (say, you're an alien) you'll probably want to blend in when on a planet that'd probably dissect you if they knew.
The majority of the English are white. (Yes, I KNOW there are blacks/asians/whatever there, I'm saying MOST Brits are white.) Ergo, if Ford was going to be hiding out there I imagine he'd want to look like the majority.
(Word verification: Combo)
Oh, to answer the ACTUAL question you asked:
No it's not racism, it's political correctness gone batshit crazy, I refer you to the actual definition of racism:
–noun
1. A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. A policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. Hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
So Firefly has few to no Asians in it. Big fucking deal, it does none of the above, so it's not racism.
As one of the guys who commented on that article said (Somewhat paraphrased because I can't be stuffed looking it up):
'There's no way you can please everyone like you. There are no Jewish, black, midget lesbians in firefly either, I'm sure they're all now horribly insulted because they're under-represented in sci-fi'
So no, you aren't responsible for maintaining an accurate representation of all races. It's just not feasible because there's too many variations. Like I said to you when I talked at you on this:
In China, their superheroes are played by Chinese dudes. Here, they're played by white dudes. It's just the cultural norm.
No it's not racism, it's political correctness gone batshit crazy, I refer you to the actual definition of racism:
–noun
1. A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. A policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. Hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
So Firefly has few to no Asians in it. Big fucking deal, it does none of the above, so it's not racism.
As one of the guys who commented on that article said (Somewhat paraphrased because I can't be stuffed looking it up):
'There's no way you can please everyone like you. There are no Jewish, black, midget lesbians in firefly either, I'm sure they're all now horribly insulted because they're under-represented in sci-fi'
So no, you aren't responsible for maintaining an accurate representation of all races. It's just not feasible because there's too many variations. Like I said to you when I talked at you on this:
In China, their superheroes are played by Chinese dudes. Here, they're played by white dudes. It's just the cultural norm.
"No. If you're anywhere in a mixed population area, you'll see members of the various races in the same area. Go to the city and look around. You'll see Korean people. Are they a part of your life now?"
Also, you missed my point there too.
I'm not saying korean people don't exist, I'm saying that Yes, even if I did go into the city, you'd see a couple of koreans, funnily enough, if the same thing is happening in firefly (IE: They aren't going to particularly Chinese areas of the universe) then it's perfectly plausible that you'd only see a few asians in the background. Which you do.
"I always thought it actually was - I don't live in a bloody vaccuum. I - and many other people - are well aware that casting him for that role was a statement in itself in a world where it shouldn't have to be."
Also here: How do you know it was a statement on race? Has anyone actually said that on record? How do you know he didn't happen to be the guy who auditioned best? You don't, it's pure conjecture. Granted, that may be the case, but until someone actually states that as fact I'm not treating it as some sign from the heavens and I'll go with the (Hello Occams razor, when did you get here?) thought that he just happened to play Ford better than the other guys who wanted to.
Also, you missed my point there too.
I'm not saying korean people don't exist, I'm saying that Yes, even if I did go into the city, you'd see a couple of koreans, funnily enough, if the same thing is happening in firefly (IE: They aren't going to particularly Chinese areas of the universe) then it's perfectly plausible that you'd only see a few asians in the background. Which you do.
"I always thought it actually was - I don't live in a bloody vaccuum. I - and many other people - are well aware that casting him for that role was a statement in itself in a world where it shouldn't have to be."
Also here: How do you know it was a statement on race? Has anyone actually said that on record? How do you know he didn't happen to be the guy who auditioned best? You don't, it's pure conjecture. Granted, that may be the case, but until someone actually states that as fact I'm not treating it as some sign from the heavens and I'll go with the (Hello Occams razor, when did you get here?) thought that he just happened to play Ford better than the other guys who wanted to.
I reiterate: OH GOD THE FLAMES
Anywhoo, I loved the casting of Mos Def as Ford because Mos is a funny, funny guy, and besides, I never REALLY had clear views of what the H2G2 folks looked like the way I did in other serieseses.
To answer your last question, I dunno. I watch stuff like the Wire (which is about cops and drug dealers in Baltimore, and there is a realistic depiction of race on both sides. But I don't recall watching it and going "Gee, isn't that a realistic depiction of race?" I was just digging the awesome and well-written show. I can also see Joss focussing on the main characters and then the casting guys getting "Generic Crowd Folks" for the backgrounds and you know what? I'm not finishing that thought. Don't want the flames.
PS: The Independance Day thing was a worldwide attack. You know how I know? They showed the pyramids to shout "EGYPT!" and the Opera House to shout "AUSTRALIA!" (though for some reason, Masai tribespeople were shown celebrating on a cliff overlooking the Harbour.
Check Race Lift (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RaceLift), Affirmitive Action Legacy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffirmativeActionLegacy), Twofer Token Minority (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TwoferTokenMinority), Five Token Band (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveTokenBand), But Not Too Black (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooBlack), and Token Minority (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TokenMinority)
Anywhoo, I loved the casting of Mos Def as Ford because Mos is a funny, funny guy, and besides, I never REALLY had clear views of what the H2G2 folks looked like the way I did in other serieseses.
To answer your last question, I dunno. I watch stuff like the Wire (which is about cops and drug dealers in Baltimore, and there is a realistic depiction of race on both sides. But I don't recall watching it and going "Gee, isn't that a realistic depiction of race?" I was just digging the awesome and well-written show. I can also see Joss focussing on the main characters and then the casting guys getting "Generic Crowd Folks" for the backgrounds and you know what? I'm not finishing that thought. Don't want the flames.
PS: The Independance Day thing was a worldwide attack. You know how I know? They showed the pyramids to shout "EGYPT!" and the Opera House to shout "AUSTRALIA!" (though for some reason, Masai tribespeople were shown celebrating on a cliff overlooking the Harbour.
Check Race Lift (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RaceLift), Affirmitive Action Legacy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffirmativeActionLegacy), Twofer Token Minority (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TwoferTokenMinority), Five Token Band (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveTokenBand), But Not Too Black (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooBlack), and Token Minority (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TokenMinority)
Craig, the idea of this topic was to provoke a bit of introspective thought, culturally-speaking, as opposed to outright emotion.
Lucas, I guess I don't really pay attention to race most of the time either. You made a good point about not consciously noticing racial diversity in The Wire. Regardless of which way it swings, I think that - most of the time - it's something that operates outside of immediate conscious thought with most folks. (I'd say, for me, the Guide was an exception, for hopefully obvious reasons.)
Something that you bring up that I've been thinking about with this issue is the casting itself - this is where directors/whoever are often exposed to options regarding who to pick for a role (no, really!). Realising that River and Simon have a Chinese-sounding surname makes one wonder - did Joss originally intend on casting the characters as asians? Was it a fault of casting, or was it for other reasons that they are played by caucasians?
Regarding Independance Day, I reckon I still disagree - it was set in the US. There's no doubt that the invasion was portrayed as a worldwide event, but this movie was about a specific group of people in a specific location during said invasion. If there's an issue there, it's about how realistically the American population is represented. Ahem...Yeah.
It'd be nice if American cinema more frequently left the confines of its borders , though.
Post a Comment
Lucas, I guess I don't really pay attention to race most of the time either. You made a good point about not consciously noticing racial diversity in The Wire. Regardless of which way it swings, I think that - most of the time - it's something that operates outside of immediate conscious thought with most folks. (I'd say, for me, the Guide was an exception, for hopefully obvious reasons.)
Something that you bring up that I've been thinking about with this issue is the casting itself - this is where directors/whoever are often exposed to options regarding who to pick for a role (no, really!). Realising that River and Simon have a Chinese-sounding surname makes one wonder - did Joss originally intend on casting the characters as asians? Was it a fault of casting, or was it for other reasons that they are played by caucasians?
Regarding Independance Day, I reckon I still disagree - it was set in the US. There's no doubt that the invasion was portrayed as a worldwide event, but this movie was about a specific group of people in a specific location during said invasion. If there's an issue there, it's about how realistically the American population is represented. Ahem...Yeah.
It'd be nice if American cinema more frequently left the confines of its borders , though.
